In the new series of ‘Our Welsh Chapel Dream’ Master Potter Keith Brymer Jones and Marj Hogarth continue their quest in turning their 163-year-old chapel into their dream home featuring a pottery studio and community hub.
Our Welsh Chapel Dream starts Tuesday 1st April at 8pm – stream or watch on Channel 4.
Ahead of the new series, here’s what Keith and Marj had to say:
In what state do we find Capel Salem as the second series of Our Welsh Chapel Dream begins?
Marj I’d say the building is now off life support and just in high dependency. It’s going in the right direction.
Keith Absolutely. That’s a really good way of putting it.
And what about you two?
Marj We’re both in high dependency…
Keith [LAUGHS] High dependency on wine.
Marj We’re alright. We’ve come such a long way. It’s kind of hard to remember how dreadful it was.
This series sees you converting the downstairs of the Sunday school into your living quarters, so you can finally move in. You’re putting your stamp on the place…
Keith Absolutely. We’re far more in the driving seat. It’s been exciting, hasn’t it, being able to dress rooms? For at least a year, there was a lot of work going on you now can’t see: underfloor heating, replacing the parquet floor, encapsulating the rooms with eco-friendly insulation. But it’s brought us to this position where we can actually start unpacking some of our furniture. We haven’t seen it for about three years.
Marj You always remember things being a lot better than they are. [LAUGHS]
Keith We’re now in the throes of the last tiny bits being done. Apparently, that’s called snagging.
Marj Just for context, though, we arrived back on Monday and Tuesday was the first day we were able to wash our hands with hot water… which is really, really monumental.
The chapel’s issue with dry rot – which we see you tackle this series – has set you back somewhat…
Keith Yeah. We’re up to about skip 30 of dry rot. We’ve lost stairwells, whole walls… it eats through anything apart from steel and stone… even concrete. It’s been a real cancer to the building and we’re not completely victorious yet. There’s still quite a bit in the big hall, but we’ve been able to get it out of our living space and we’re sort of in control now.
Marj We have the certificates to prove it.
Keith When the series opens, we’re trying to rip out the fungus. The Sunday school’s original staircase has gone completely. At the moment, we have a massive void about 60ft high and we’ve just installed a light feature – light fittings from the main hall we’ve been able to repurpose. You needed to be in the circus to go up there, I’ll tell you. We’re getting a galvanised staircase which won’t rot. It will look stunning.
Presumably, the dry rot has been far more expensive to get rid of than you hoped…
Marj Of course. Everything’s more expensive than you think it’s going to be. That’s how it works. Think of a number and double it.
Keith Yeah. Every time we talk to Rhodri, our architect, he says: ‘Oh, well, that’ll be five grand…’
Marj You do become really desensitised to the numbers… until the middle of the night. [LAUGHS]
Keith And you wake up in a cold sweat.
Marj The dry rot was more of a horrendous job than we initially thought it would be because it runs away from you. I remember we’d been away from the building for a few weeks and Rhodri said: ‘Now, before you go in there, don’t be horrified.’ We said: ‘What do you mean?’ He said: ‘You’ll know when you get in there.’ The treatment had been done and the floor was just this carpet of fungus. He said that means they’ve got it because fungus knows we’re trying to kill it and it fruits before it dies.
Keith It does its last hurrah.
Marj It’s mind-blowing.
Keith Honestly, fungus, it’s the future. I’m coming back as fungus because it’s incredible stuff. It has its own thought process, you know? It’s like an alien. It knows it’s being attacked, so it tries to get its spores out.
How are you stopping it from getting into the now safe part of the building?
Marj Treatment, treatment, treatment. You chase at least a metre beyond where the problem is – everything has to be taken away. You take out every matchstick of wood.
Keith Then, it’s all sprayed.
Marj There’s a guy who comes from Kimberly Gulf, our treatment people, and they call him Laser Eyes. You can’t see anything, but he’ll look at a wall and put these red rings around the tiniest bits…
Keith That’s why we’ve had to go for new parquet in our snug and bedroom and so forth. We couldn’t risk the original parquet being infected. We had to take it out.
Have you moved into your new home now?
Marj No. We’re very, very close. We’ve only had hot water for three days!
You could have been boiling kettles…
Keith [LAUGHS] We’re on the cusp of moving in…
Marj Basically, building regs have to come and sign everything off before it’s considered safe for us to stay here. Also, we can only get in and out with padlocks. It’s not ideal.
Keith Not a normal key. [LAUGHS] I’m just looking now at the snug ceiling. We’ve got this amazing sprinkler system. As it’s Welsh, new builds or renovations have to have a sprinkler system in all the domestic areas.
Marj It wasn’t the most expensive, but we said if we’re going to have one, we want one that’s exposed. We’ve got beautiful copper pipes and these fabulous old style cages.
Your kitchen is the focus of the first episode. What’s your inspiration?
Marj I’d always wanted to have an English Rose kitchen – they were manufactured in the 1950s by people that used to make aeroplanes and it’s basically aluminium. We found a woman who has a business that restores them. Our kitchen walls are red, the ceiling is red, the windows… everything. Rhodri thought it was going to look like some crazy murder scene, but he quite likes it now.
Keith The units themselves are cream, so it brings the whole thing to life, doesn’t it?
Marj Yeah, they’re fabulous. We also have the most beautiful sink. We went to see it being made at Darwen Terracotta just outside Blackburn. And, oh my goodness, it’s fabulous. Basically, the sinks are a by-product of what they do mostly – repairs to the finials on skyscrapers.
Keith Yeah, they do all this bespoke restorative work, but also fit bars and hotels with the most amazing tiles. And they do a sideline in Butler sinks.
You didn’t fancy making your own sinks, Keith, having set potters that task on Throw Down?
Keith Well, I could have done, but I don’t think they would have been as beautiful.
Episode two focuses on the snug. What look are you going for?
Marj When we started to work with Rhodri, he thought our living room should be the room that is now our black bathroom. He said: ‘I think you should have a cosy little room in the centre of the building, so you’ll feel snug and safe and private.’ And we said: ‘No, we’re not doing that…’ because we’d lived in a rented flat in Margate, which we absolutely loved, but it was tiny. Our entire flat was probably the size of this room. In fact, slightly smaller. We said: ‘No, we want space and we want to be able to celebrate that space.’
We want to be able to tango naked round the room if we so wished…
Keith Absolutely. [LAUGHS]
Marj We have underfloor heating serviced by an air source heat pump and a beautiful Scandinavian wood burner. We’ve basically tried to create different areas. My fear was that it would all be a bit disjointed, but it isn’t. We have some mid-century furniture, but we didn’t want a museum set. We’ve got a sort of Rococo chair I recovered using a sheepskin coat. We’ve got a wall of tiles Keith made. We’ve put ourselves into the room.
You made 77 huge clay tiles for a brutalist feature wall, Keith…
Keith Yeah. We got inspiration when we went up to the Isle of Bute [where Marj’s late parents lived]. There’s a terrific mid-century building on the side of a hill – the old comprehensive – which had these wonderful architectural tiles on the wall.
Marj Rothesay Academy.
Keith Rhodri then informed us we’d lost a whole wall to dry rot and they were going to have to rebuild it with breeze blocks. We could either render and plaster it or do something with it, so I took it upon myself to make these tiles. It’s worked out really, really well. It’s a real nod to brutalist architecture…
Marj … and mid-century aesthetic. And with the big metal girders we’ve got, the colour is fantastic.
Keith It’s volcanic clay that fires really black and is really grainy. The texture really works – especially when the light falls across it. Most of the tiles were made in between filming the Throw Down at Gladstone Pottery because it was the only time I had. [Fellow judge] Rich gave me a hand.
How did it feel to make something for your new home…
Keith Really good actually. It was a really psychologically therapeutic thing to do. And if truth be told, it’s one of the only times I’ve ever done that – made something for a living space we’re going to occupy. It’s wonderful. I’m looking at them now across the room. They’ll be here forever. I love them.
You mentioned covering chairs with old sheepskin coats, Marj. You say in the show: ‘I’m not an expert in this, but we’ll see how it goes…’ And they look amazing. Do you hope people watching will give it a go and not be scared to try?
Marj Absolutely. You don’t have to go on a course and you don’t have to spend a lot of money. I mean, you can pick up old sheepskin coats in charity shops for 20 quid. It doesn’t have to be expensive. You just have to have a little bit of confidence to say: ‘OK, think it through, get your scissors out, get on with it.’ It is just about having a go.
Certain things, of necessity, must cost a pretty penny though… like the parquet floor?
Marj Yes, 7,500 blocks we have.
Keith What’s amazing about Broadleaf Timber is the wood they use is all sustainable. It’s bought in France and then seasoned for 10 years. Then, they start cutting it up into parquet.
They tumble the parquet blocks in a bucket with stones to rough them up…
Keith That’s about it. You know, we’ve got these wonderful pillars we’ve sandblasted and they look old. They’re sort of rusting up now, they’re oxidising, which is lovely. We don’t want brand new pristine stuff because it would look a bit odd. And so, yeah, they put the parquet in a big tumble dryer and mushed it about a bit. Now, all the edges have softened and there’s little dents in it and, when you see the light coming through the windows, it’s amazing. We know it’s brand new, yet it looks like it’s been there since the chapel was built.
You wanted a standard lamp in a Victorian parlour bathroom. Where did this dream stem from?
Marj It’s rooted in my childhood. My father’s parents had been tenant farmers in Henley-on-Thames and, when they retired and gave up the farm, they moved to a house and my grandfather’s brother lived with them. He had his own parlour, kitchen and bedroom. We only really saw him on a Sunday, but he was a marvellous old man called Harry. He had no teeth – he wouldn’t wear his false teeth because he found them uncomfortable. And he cooked the best roast potatoes ever. We were always taken into his parlour when we arrived to say hello and when we left to say goodbye. It was like going into another world. His room was dark and velvety and smelt of dust and old books and tobacco and it was like nowhere I had ever been before. I absolutely loved it. [Marj points out a potted aspidistra] This is part of the aspidistra that sat on his walnut table. There’s been cuttings and cuttings and cuttings – everyone’s got a bit – and that’s my bit. I just wanted that sense of Victoriana. And why wouldn’t you have that in your bathroom? LAUGHS
The decoration in there isn’t what a lot of people would choose. It’s painted black…
Keith What’s wonderful is the builders and painters were going: ‘What? A black bathroom? Really? Really?’ Now, they go in and say: ‘Hey, this looks really good.’ That’s the thing. What people don’t realise is we’re all adult when we own our own home and you could do whatever you want. You’re living there.
Marj If you appreciate creativity and design, you can go to somebody’s house and it absolutely not be for you, but you know it’s beautiful. You know they love it. That’s all that matters. It’s not about what we would have, it’s about appreciating the fact someone’s put their heart and soul into a thing. Your home is your ultimate canvas to show the world who you are.
You managed to find a bath long enough for Keith – a green 1950s cast iron one…
Marj We went a long way for that bath.
Keith The bath came out of a private house in Halifax. We had to push it on carpet up the pebble path to get it onto the van. It’s 200kg. It’s heavy. It’s not going anywhere.
Is there a reclamation yard in the country you’ve not been to?
Keith We’ve been to a fair few, I must admit.
Marj We should get a loyalty card to collect stamps as we go round the country.
What’s the inspiration for the bedroom?
Marj The bedroom was the room I struggled with most, but it’s really simple. It sounds hideous, but it’s not. Everywhere is pink – a subtle powder pink, not a feminine girly pink. We’ve got beautiful new Crittall-esque windows.
Keith And built-in closets made with the backs of the pews. That soft pink works really well with our French Renaissance-style bed.
Bet you can’t wait to spend your first night there and cook your first meal…
Keith Seriously, no. A few weeks ago, the Swedish wood burner went into the snug. We were sitting in front of it and didn’t really want to leave. It was so nice. We thought: ‘No, let’s get another bottle of wine and just watch the flames.’ It was a really wonderful moment.
What other pottery items have you made for the chapel?
Keith We’ve been on various inspiration trips to places we love. One of them was Coventry Cathedral – one of Marj’s favourite buildings. It’s a real snapshot of 1950s design. Basil Spence designed it and stipulated that everything within the building had to be designed specifically for the building by artists and craftsmen at the top of their game in the 1950s. One of those was Hans Coper, who made these candlesticks seven or eight feet high. They’re amazing in this very textural clay. I thought I’d do something like that. Hence, the candlestick in the bathroom. I need to make two others to go with it, but it works really well.
The candlestick is the last thing you threw at your old studio in Whitstable, Kent. Was it moving? Did it feel like the end of one chapter and the start of a new one?
Keith Absolutely. It certainly didn’t go unnoticed. I did really realise it was the last thing I was ever going to make in the studio. The pottery wheels are now up here – they came on a pallet yesterday – but I haven’t touched clay for a while and I do get a bit funny when I don’t touch clay.
Marj Funni-er.
Keith So I do need to get the studio sorted fairly soon.
And tell us what else is new….
Keith We took an old standard lamp from Marj’s parent’s place and that’s the lamp we have in the bathroom. She covered the shade, so this pretty standard looking lamp now looks a million dollars. The clay for the tiles cost me about 200 quid, but it’s what you do with the clay, isn’t it?
Marj Ooh, our light switches. Total bargain. We went through every permutation of light switch…
Keith We overthought it.
Marj We had samples from everywhere and they were extortionate. Then, we just thought: ‘We’ll go for something high gloss because it will reflect the blue on the walls.’ And it does. And we’ve got toggle switches, which I’m obsessed about… They were really cheap.
Keith The switches we were looking at were about £90 each and those are £9.99.
The building is the very definition of a money pit. Have you been able to apply for any grants to help?
Marj Not yet. So far, everything is being bankrolled by us, but when we come to do the multi-purpose community space, we are going to need some help.
Keith We’re running out of money.
Marj And we’re both getting on a bit and don’t want to have to wait 10 years to be able to welcome people. A few people have mentioned the possibility of heritage funding or whatever. It’s a world we don’t really know anything about and it’s a highly skilled job applying for funding.
All your tradespeople must have caught your passion for the project, too…
Marj When they started painting, I think they were a bit: ‘Ewwww…’
Keith ‘They’re nutters…’
They must have known that before, though, Keith?
Keith [LAUGHS]
Marj Not necessarily. He hides it so well. But then we started to put things into the rooms. We’ve got our haberdashery counter in the bedroom – a really lovely, old, shop fitting in quite good condition. The size of the rooms means we can repurpose that kind of thing. Our lovely painter Ian totally and utterly fell in love with it. I said: ‘Don’t worry. I’ll put it in my will. You can have it.’ And every time he sees me, he goes: ‘Haven’t forgotten…’ I mean, he’s my age. [LAUGHS] Passion is infectious. We’ve met all these really kind people who have come to work with us. You develop a relationship and they want us to succeed. They want it to be beautiful. Everyone feels invested. Our builders have been absolutely incredible. Way above and beyond what we anticipated. And everyone who has come to work with Hew, our builder, has just been extraordinary: polite, mindful, genuinely caring.
Keith They’re true craftsmen in their own right. They really know what they’re doing.
Have you had many moments where you’ve been overwhelmed by the size of the project?
Marj Yeah. We’re still overwhelmed by the size of the project, but it’s getting easier. I mean, there was a time, not that long ago, where it happened every day. You’d think you were OK and you weren’t. You want to honour the building and community, but sometimes you don’t know what to do first. [LAUGHS]
Keith Also, you know, the added pressure – as if we need any more – is this thing is on the telly and because people know what we’re trying to do and our vision, we have to get it done. The community is expecting that. We have to put our money – or our actions – where our mouth is. There’s something quite wonderful about the whole town of Pwllheli having a personal connection with the building.
You feel like they’re on your team…
Keith Yeah, yeah.
Marj Although when people say to me: ‘It’ll be lovely when it’s finished…’ it’s like a knife in my heart. [LAUGHS] I don’t really know what that looks like.
What’s been the lowest moment?
Keith When there were big puddles on the parquet in the snug and you were literally sweeping waves of water out the door.
Marj Not the new parquet, the old.
Keith And when door frames are collapsing because of the damp, you’re thinking: ‘What have we taken on? It’s a wreck. Are we ever going to get to a point where we’re winning?’
Marj There’s something really emotional about water coming in. All you think about is the damage it has done. How long has it taken to actually come through? Where is it coming from? We have a massive roof.
Keith Two massive roofs. There were trees growing on the roof. [LAUGHS] We realise it’s going to be a bit like the Forth Bridge. The maintenance of this kind of building is enormous.
The portrait of your partnership in the first series was one of its most beautiful things. You’re very much a team and each other’s biggest cheerleaders…
Marj You are constantly monitoring each other to work out where we are and how we’re feeling.
Keith I’ve said this before: things are twice as good and half as bad when you’re in a decent relationship because you’ve got someone to support you all the way. I can categorically say I wouldn’t be doing a quarter of this if it wasn’t for Marj by my side. I’m not saying that just to be kind. I’m sure many people have this in their relationships – their partner gives them extra confidence to push themselves to somewhere unknown.
Marj I really struggled at the beginning with making decisions about things because it felt so monumental. When somebody says: ‘Where do you want your light? Where do you want your light switch?’ It felt like we were making life-changing decisions and I didn’t feel I had the confidence to make those choices. We’re really pleased with the choices we’ve made, though. Personally, I’ve grown enormously through the process.
Keith We very rarely disagree. If Marj comes up with a suggestion and I go: ‘Yeah, that’s great.’ I genuinely think that’s a great idea. And vice versa. We enjoy each other’s taste and ideas.
Renovation can strain a relationship, but it feels like it’s only making you two stronger…
Marj Yeah. I also think that when you’re making choices about how you want the aesthetic to be, it’s quite revealing. Maybe we get to see each other a little bit more exposed.
You are clearly the right people to take on this project. Does it feel like fate that a) you met in the first place and b) you’re at the chapel?
Marj Absolutely. [Marj wells up]
Keith Don’t get her started. Seriously, absolutely, 100%. We were meant to be together. We were meant to take on this building.
You must be the talk of the town. Have they been very supportive? Do you get a cwtch from people in the neighbourhood?
Keith Absolutely, we do. Everyone knows who we are. We have lots of chapel disciples as our lovely post boy calls them. We don’t have a letterbox yet, so John – who is 89 and lives across the road – takes in our post for us. He gets all this fan mail and packages of bunting delivered. He says: ‘Oh, it’s been a good day today. There’s been quite a few chapel disciples up the road…’ They all come and have a look. Everyone is really invested in the building. It’s really, really nice.
You’re already a tourist attraction…
Keith Yeah. And on that subject, there has been a survey done within the town of local businesses and, apparently, some of their footfall and business has gone up 60%.
The chapel effect…
Keith Absolutely. And that’s wonderful for us. That’s music to our ears. We’ve had 1,000s of messages, too.
Are you thinking of having a shop on site to sell your wares to all these tourists?
Marj Ideally, what we will do when we have some more money is have a shop in town separate to the building. There are a lot of empty shops and it’d be really good to have quite a visual impact.
Keith Obviously, the studio pottery is a private studio. Our apprentices will be there to make work to sell, but that will be mostly online. There’ll be open days for people to come in and have a look around, though. And the multi-purpose community space will be open for exhibitions, folk evenings, farmers markets maybe.
You’ve had a third series commissioned. Will that be all about getting the studio up and running?
Keith The main focus after the living space is the studio hall, yes, to get some production in there so I can earn the money to do the rest of the building. I visualise myself leaning against the archway of a door at the studio with a cup of tea and 300 pots I’ve just made behind me. That’s my next goal… to get to that point. I’m thinking it will be looking like a pottery studio in September.
Marj Keith and I work in a very different way. He is always projecting into the future, whereas I need to be here, I need to be now. For me, this is amazing.
Keith It’s incredible, really. And that’s not just down to us, it’s the builders as well. Well, mostly the builders. A hell of a lot has gone on.
Marj One of the many joys about working with the crew we’ve worked with is the fact that it is documented in two television series. You can see the progression.
You’ve not had any more break-ins from those pesky pigeons, have you?
Marj We have!
Keith A few weeks ago, we were in the studio hall. Of course, the door is open from the bridge the builders have put in from the car park and some pigeons came in and were nesting. Now, the little ones have hatched, they’ve fortunately gone again. They are just pooing machines, they really are. It’s terrible.
Do the others sit on the roof judging you as you go in the building?
Marj They do, yeah, but there is a lot fewer.
Keith They seem to have found somewhere else to poo!